The Origin and History of Mien (Yao)

There was an MSN video "dancing knife" from Korea is so similar to our Mien culture. The flute they played sounds exactly the same on our mien wedding. I believe that we are korean's long lost brother and sister.
That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Well, I'm sure you're right about the paintings. To me they looked similar but it was from a picture in the background of another picture. I've never actually seen them up close.
I can exchange info anytime. I'm sorry if my info not organized because they are from my head. I don't have documents and such. lol

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Daix ngongh daix zaangz bun ong nyanc,
Ong nyanc orv, gux hlaaix mbungv..

Hhmm...

Never heard of that story of the Guo Shan Yao and the Lanten, or the Guo Shan as a whole, before it turned into 2 branches.; and thank you for writing it in Mienh, it just sounds so much better.

The religious paintings of the Kim Mun differ tremendously from the Mienh religious paintings; my opinion that is. I have pictures of their embroidery, silver, and religious belongings, and I could not identify it with the Mienh at all (at first glance). Though of course I had to examine it a bit, and I'm sure the Yao traits and similarities are all there, but there were also great details that set them a part. It's also interesting how they appear to be physically different from the Mienh branches as well. I will let

Also, let me know when we can exchange information... I've been meaning to organize my information.

Well i have all the free time in the world. Sure I would be glad to exchange info. But i doubt I know anything that you already don't. William Gorx has many information so you can also look toward him for information.

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Daix ngongh daix zaangz bun ong nyanc,
Ong nyanc orv, gux hlaaix mbungv..

Yeah, my grandma also said that the Kim Mun speaks and understand Mienh. She said that when she was around them, she could sorta understand their language when she was small because our languages are similar. For example, the Lantien are seperated into two groups, the Kim Mun and Kim Di. Kim Mun meaning highlands and Kim Di meanng lowlands. Kim Mun sounds like 'Gemh Mienh' in our language meaning people in the highlands and Kim Di sounds like 'Gemh Ndiev' meaning at the foot of the mountains. I also listened to a recording of the Lanten and it also sounds like our language.

My grandma told me this story about the Lanten and Mienh. It goes like this: A group of Mienh people[the Guo Shan Yao?] were moving from China into the Southeast Asian lands. [I'm just gonna say it in Mienh, too hard for me to translate it, sorry for the ones who can't read it]. Maaih buonc mienh gorngv biaaux deic-bung yaac aengx naaic buonc maaih mienh camv haic liuz bun nqoi benx i buonc. Da'ietv buonc, Gorx, uov daauh dorh cuotv aeqv Da'nyeic buonc, Youz, dorh cuotv. Gorx mbuo nyiex mba'mborng caaux zuqc aengx mingh ndaangc miaqv. Youz uov buonc kungx dingh hitv kuonx hnangv aeqv zoux gor zunc maiv zaic ninh gorx mbuo aeqv. Lorz yaac lorz maiv buatc liuz yangh ganh diuh jaauv mingh aeqv zoux gor maiv dongh jaauv mingh aengx mingh ganh diuh jaauv. Youz uov buonc zoux norm laangz daih yiem m'baac mv maih zuqc daih zuqc zeiv, wueic laaix Gorx mbuo nyiex nzengc mingh miaqv. Hnangv nor, se daih naic Janx-Canh Zeiv[Youz] maiv zuqc zeiv longc sipv mienv aeqv longc buoz-juonh nuiv zeiv-ndonx daih longc sipv mienv. I can't word it out as well as my grandma but it was something like this. hehe.
I also seen pictures of the Lanten ceremonies and they were very very similar to ours. They used the same paintings as us in the major ceremonies. There were just little differences.
My grandma also told me that they learnt and used bad magic often to harm people mainly the women. They used [Faatv] magic I'm assuming to put things into peoples bodies. Her Dad at one point in his life had powers from the gods and her Mom, to help others. Her dad was taught by Heaven people[Fin-Mienh] how to rid someone of the things put inside their bodies by bad magic. He would do something special with a stick and put in on the wound with his mouth on the other end and say his words and suck the stuff into his mouth[the stick wasn't hollow either]. Then he would spit it out and it would be either locks of hair, pieces of broken metal or porcelain. He was really strong until a change in something in the homeland[China], maybe change in rule or power or something but after that the spirits stopped giving him powers and he was back to normal again. After this, he was victim of the magic brought by someone and he died after.
My grandma was small when this happened I think and they lived near the Nam Ma River where the majority of Lanten live in Laos.

Yes, when we do our ceremonies, we worship the same ancestors from the ancient places. I do a little sipv mienv myself and i figured out that in minor ceremonies, we call the ancestors from yangh ziou, which I think is Yang Zhou, China and also from their burial place and from our incense jar which i think means our home because maybe a part of them stay with us at home to protect us. The other ones i mentioned are mostly called upon only when we do the major ceremonies such as Guaax Dang, or Zoux Ndaangh or whenever we 'Bieqc Yinh'.

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Daix ngongh daix zaangz bun ong nyanc,
Ong nyanc orv, gux hlaaix mbungv..

Well thanks anyways about the [nyunc]

Also thanks for translating the places, really good information. I also think that this isn't the full Zouv-Douh. I remember my dad having to go to a relatives in a different town to get another Zouv-douh and I think that, that one is the full one because they needed for [Orn Zouv] and [Mbouv Domh Guaax]. Thank You.

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Daix ngongh daix zaangz bun ong nyanc,
Ong nyanc orv, gux hlaaix mbungv..

I love the information you post here, if you have some free time, I would love to exchange some of the information I have with you. I'm a beginner within these studies, and I've been meaning to find others who can help me put the pieces together. Let me know if you can help!

Yes!

I believe I've been told the same information by my father. And once and for all, he's proved his Mienh knowledge to me, to be correct.

I've shown pictures of the Kim-Mun people to my father and he told me in his own words, "Mv deix Mienh naaiv haaih gorngv Mienh waac nyei, haaih bieqc hnyiouv mbuo waac nyei, mv baac mv zeix Mienh." He too, pronounced the name as "Janx-Cingh Zeiqv".

Sources have told me that the Lantien, Lanten groups and the Iu-Mien speaking groups can understand about half of each others' languages. These Kim-Mun speaking Yao also do not refer or are not recognized at all as the "Mienh," but are Yao, which makes great sense.

So, they branched off from the Guo Shan Yao, eh..? Hhmm, I suppose that would make sense, overall there was a huge disperse of the Kim-Mun/Lantien speaking Yao in Fujian (where the Guo Shan Yao, you've said earlier, settled in Fujian too).

Brilliant brief info you have about the beginnings of the Mienh religion; which then goes into the crossing of the sea. So, when we Lao-American Mienh people do these same ceremonies, we actually, do in fact, worship the same ancestors from the ancient grounds/places you mentioned earlier? If so, thats a real unknown fact to me.

I mean, I know we've carried our lineage and family names within these manuscripts/texts, which also describes the place where our ancestors are buried as well, but I had no idea that it goes as far back as this. But it only pertains to certain ceremonies, I'm assuming?

Sorry to have responded so late, haven't been on here in a couple of days...Great info, I've read every bit of it!

this is a section from the article posted below :

在过山瑶的迁徙过程中，特别值得提出的是广东韶州府，此地对过山瑶的历史和文化影响甚大。从前面所列各路的迁徙看，都经过了韶州。茶坪和莽山在还
...one place in the way of the Guo Shan Yao's migration paths, Shao Zou Fu [Saux-Ziou Fouv] is worth a special pointing out...the place greatly influenced the Mien culture and history...

中，也反复提到这个地方。如在还大排良愿的“青云堂”，有连州后生唱，《连州歌》卖“丰飞”树的表演，在“宝书良愿”的歌坛里，又大唱了《连州桃源洞歌》。这说明韶州府地带是过山瑶长途迁徙中一个重要的聚落点和里程碑。
遥想当年，先祖在南海岸登陆，各姓简单地还愿谢祖后，北迁到了粤北山地，这里的高山密林成了他们抵御异己力量的屏障和避难的所在，在那里，他们又得以重新聚居，在乐昌或连州建起连州大庙，将自己固有的原始宗教（如还愿
...they built a big temple at Le Chang 乐昌 or Lian Zhou...
note: this is foumous place name [lorqc ciang nquenc]...here they lived in a compect community after Sailing Across The Sea[Mbiouh Youh Jiex Koiv]...this is what the legend says. According to Zhao Yan Qiu, the author of this article, the all 10 migrating path of Yao were thru this place...Shao Zhou Fu and Le Cang Xian 韶州府 & 樂昌縣 Saaux-Ziou Fouv caux Lorqc Ciang Nquenc...

note: i think this is the same Lian Zhou in Sailing Across The Sea, Iu-Mien Folk song that i posed at my blog, written by Pan Saeng Yao.

中的招五鼓魂）和在江浙地带吸收的茅山教揉合在一起，又加上漂船过海的经历和集各姓登陆后简单还愿仪式之大成，在连州大庙里，进行整个部族性的“奏档”还愿。集体创作和规定了统一的经典宝书，统一的还愿仪式，统一的祭献牺牲，并有了代代还愿的祭祀规约。从仪式到内容，从语言到文字（借用汉文记音记意），形成了过山瑶的一整套科仪制度。可以肯定，过山瑶在那里聚居了一段不短的时间。又时逢唐初贞观盛世，唐太宗鼓励开发岭南，免徭役赋税，颁劵牒，批官山给瑶人，使瑶人获得赖以生存的山岭土地及其它一些特权，此次走上新的生活之路。他们带着先祖许下的神圣“愿约”，也带着他们在这里共同创作的“良愿宝书”随山耕种，漂泊天下，而形成了还愿活动，还愿经
...the Tang emperor encouraged {the Yao} to explore these mountains...waved them taxes...issued them Jiex Sen Borngv...appointed them high ranking officials...so they received special rights to live on these mountains...
Here...they created this book called Liang Yuan Shu[laangh nyunc shou] and other paying vow books[jaauv nyunc ging-sou]还愿经书

书，它们记载了在今天通“勉”语的瑶族社会“天下大同”的情景。因此，在过山瑶的心目中，韶州府简直就是一块圣地，一片乐土。故还愿时总有不少有关连州的内容。正是这种仪式与内容，使过山瑶对韶州府那么难以忘怀。竹村对老挝过山瑶集团的漂海传说分析说：
...in the hearts of Guo Shan Yao, Shao Zhou Fu [韶州府]is their Holy land and Paradise...
my comments:...thus, when sipv mienv, shaman always invites sprits of the ancestors from these former Mien important places...and i heard that some dying Mien people even ask their children to send their souls [to do the sending in sipv mienv of course] back to these places as well after they pass away...

note: Shao Zhou Fu is nowaday Ru Yuan county in Guang Dong Province.

--Camv-Norm Mh Zing Tengx Jienv Doic Mangc Buatc Duqv Gauh Jangv Gauh Cing--

Pinkys, thanks for reading my messy little writing.

i think i found this article either at Yaozu.com or bbs.yaool.cn. Let me repost the article here for every one to read. Hopefully the author does not kick my behind for not asking her for permission !

过山瑶的族源和迁徙

赵砚球

从瑶族传统的祭祀活动-----还盘王愿的仪式与内容看，是过山瑶对先祖神灵的祭献。数典不忘祖-----漂船过海后，向盘王表示自己的感情与承诺，并祈求继续得到保佑，这种还愿活动，隐藏着先祖绝对可信的历史生活。还愿的祭祀者师公所演示的仪式与内容，向我们展示了过山瑶民族的诞生和发展，也使我们看到有关过山瑶的族源及迁徙历程之史实。

一、过山瑶源于山越，其原始居住地在江浙一带的会稽山。

史载：“盘瓠为会稽侯，……食会稽郡一千户。”a“盘瓠之后……在江淮之间，依托险阻，部落滋蔓，布于数州。”b“山越本亦越人，依阻山险，不纳王租。故曰山越。”c“其活动地区在扬州诸郡”d。“山越是一个特定民族的称谓”e。而以信奉盘瓠为显著特点的过山瑶，就是以此地作为故乡的。根据过山瑶的“奏档”还盘王愿及早期历史、社会经济生活特点和语言情况看。过山瑶先民是古越族的一支----山越。

[this is the sentence that says Guo Shan Yao originated from Shan Yue]

1、从还盘王愿活动看。过山瑶师公在“奏档”还愿的“马头意者”、“园箕愿”、“大排良愿”和“歌堂宝书良愿”等四个不同场合的仪式中，都以《横连大席打令口诀》讲历史、道根源。说“当初以来，洪水发过……十二姓瑶人子孙原住南京、七宝洞会稽山”。笔者在茶坪和莽山的“还愿香坛”里翻遍了五十多册还原经文及桂阳、郴县、临武、宜章、资兴等县瑶山中30多册的经书，看到凡是道根源内容的，都毫无例外地提到了先祖“原居会稽山南京七宝洞（或七仙洞、十宝洞）”这个地名。师公在请四庙王（有的请三庙王）的同时，也总少不了要请“本祖家先扬州庙”，唱道“香烟奏到扬州大殿本祖家先坟墓里头”。在还愿的“开坛请圣”仪式中念《三清香》经文时，有“弟子茅山去学法，步入太上老君门”的句子。茅山，在江苏省西南部，是道教茅山派的发源地，过山瑶先民生活在南京一带，他们去学法，必然在本土学。莽山瑶乡95岁的赵堂保师公就自称“我们瑶人信的是茅山教”。会稽山、南京、扬州、茅山等地区曾经是山越人一度活跃过的地方。

[Here are some names of the places where Guo Shan Yao believed to be originated--shaman always recite these in sipv mienv. eg. Hui Ji Shan, Nan Jing, Yang Zhou and Mao Shan. i don't have chance to listen to the real sipv mienv yet. i wonder how the shaman pronounce them in Mien?]

2、从瑶族文物和民间文献资料看。湖南郴县东波瑶族村盘经忠家一座老式砖房的大门横匾上书写着“会稽世弟”四个斗大墨字，虽经百余年风雨剥蚀，至今仍清晰可见。该村约二十来户盘姓人家的厅屋神龛上仍安放着书有“本音会稽郡池一脉宗亲”字样的木制彩绘神像祖神牌，那些用红纸书写的“本音会稽郡地一脉宗亲”的供文，也在郴州各县过山瑶家中的祖先坛里举目可见。问及他们先祖的来处，必答“南京”“会稽山”。他们对自己的早期故乡有一种“不思量，自难忘”的亲切感和神圣感。在还愿的“跳罡哪勉”的仪式中，有一首把扬州当作祖居地的《家先歌》唱道：“昆仑山安灶鬼，扬州大殿请家先，当初共锅吃过饭。死入扬州受佛香，当初吃过父母胸前奶，咬破几多衣领衫，父母不亲何人亲，不敬父母敬何人。”湖南蓝山县荆竹乡瑶人的神龛上也书写着“三界掌东岳殿上康王臣孟吕雷狄留扬州铁林府什士太保度灾保患位”。这“扬州铁林府”同样不外是一种对远祖和原始居住地的祭祀与追思。郴县《盘氏宗谱》记载他们的远祖盘庚“原籍松江（浙江绍兴）人”f，资兴、酃县的《赵氏族谱》载“赵氏者乃盘王之女也。……后子孙即为赵氏之后而籍南京七宝洞立业数百世。”蓝山县《赵氏族谱》也言“当时善祖盘明月公，在会稽山游猎。”珍藏在瑶山中众多的《评王劵牒》《过山榜》等类文献也都有盘瓠夫妇成婚后“鼓乐迎送会稽山安居乐业”的记载。容观琼先生曾对149份《劵牒》作过精细的研究，得出结论：“龙犬盘瓠是瑶族的图腾祖先，它发迹于浙江中部的会稽山，通勉语的瑶族早期故乡在江淮闽浙一带更符合历史实际。”这一结论，是符合过山瑶历史情况的。容先生在《瑶族历史三题》中提到的149份《劵牒》中，仅有一例两份内容相同。“始祖太公赵朝三，自后开辟年间”，原住“武昌府，下湖南海岸，出会稽白云山之地安居”这例在迁徙流向上似与其它劵牒不同，但经多方查阅该劵牒的收藏者们(蓝山县荆竹乡赵姓人）的《赵氏族谱》，见谱载是：“当时吾祖盘明公在会稽山游猎，被山羊撞落石岩之下。明月公去世。十二子移居小南渡，八子赵瑞至正二年住林子山，至正八年又来到广西上五堡金子村居住，二十年，赵瑞之子朝三，东迁西徙，踪迹糜定，又到湖广武昌府下湖南海岸居住……。”这一材料可补证容先生的结论。赵朝三的先世及后代迁徙，同样是如其它劵牒记载的一样，原始居住地在会稽山，而不是在武昌府，或下湖南海岸，荆竹乡的这两份《劵牒》在传抄中略去了赵朝三的先辈迁徙史。

3、从语言对比分析看。“勉”语带有很多东南沿海地区的语言词汇。关于它们之间的密切关系，不少学者已有了较深入的研究，陈志良先生在《广西特种部族歌谣集》中曾将古代越歌与瑶歌加以比较，认为瑶语与越语有密切关系。日本学者桥本万太郎认为，“跟吴语区人民最有密切关系的是古代百越人民……苗瑶应该是其中之一，从吴语音调系统看来，很多地方类似苗瑶语。”徐松石也说“吴语、闽语和粤语，乃中国东南沿海的三大汉语方言系，这三大方言系与古代土著部族的分布密切相关。”g根据以上学者研究的线索，近期用“勉语”与上海、江苏、闽南、梅县、潮州、高州、广州、韶关等地人对话比较，发现“勉语”中确实有很多词汇和语言与上述地的词汇相同或相近。如与上海话比较：上海话11至21的数目中11、15、16、17、18、20、21的读法与过山瑶“勉”语完全一样，师公在还愿“围坛”时，与歌娘对唱中，有不少“不使问”的歌词，就是上海话“不要问”之意，二者音同、义同。而苏州人自称“我”为“宜”，与“勉”话的自称“我”为“衣”非常相似。与广东潮州话比较，鸡、鸭、猪、窗户、鞋袜、招禾魂的发音也与“勉”话完全相同。潮州话的“没饭吃、没衣着”的发音与过山瑶的歌唱语言语言（过山瑶的部分歌唱语言与生活口语有义同音不同的特点）；与广东话比较，“说话”二字，“勉”语发一样的音。“没无”之意，广东话发“某”音，而过山瑶的还愿经文中，就是借用“某”来记述伏羲兄妹成婚事的。如：“天下某人，伏羲兄妹成双，某人为媒，乌龟为媒，生下血盆，某人分表，玉女分表”，而对“越人”二字的发音“于演”（“雨撵”），简直就是过山瑶对“瑶人”，即发“雨勉”（优勉）音。这使我们联想到，极有可能过山瑶“优勉”二字的自称原本就是“越人”二字。古代文人只是按“勉”语或粤语的发音，用汉字模拟写成了“瑶人”，而后又演变成了族名。可见过山瑶“勉”语与吴语、闽语、粤语，有着很深的渊源关系，或说语言上的亲属关系。这从还愿使用语言上也可得到有趣的证实。茶坪和莽山师公在还愿时，使用了至少四种语言，师公说是用了粤语（越语？）客家话、一半汉一半瑶的“阳出声气”及现今的当地“勉”话。这些不同语言都是在还愿的特定环境下不同“愿”的不同程序中使用，不能颠倒，前面几种语言当地人是听不懂的，只有师公掌握。可以设想，这其中有一种历史的顺序渐进因素，这就是过山瑶的族源与原始居住地及迁徙地在语言中的投影。正如德国语言学家雅各布、格里姆说的“我们的语言也就是我们的历史。”郴县的《盘氏宗谱》明确记载其先祖曾经落居在“扬子江润州坝尾”、“松江”“洪州”、“荊州”、“江西庐陵县”、“潮州”、“惠州”、“韶州”等地。这些地名与语言可互为验证，今天操“勉”语的过山瑶先世，是生长在这块东南沿海区古扬越之地的古越人。

[above is the paragraph about similarities of the Wu, Yue and Min dialects when compare to the Iu-Mien language.]

4、从民族习性与经济生活看。山越人与过山瑶有着一脉相承的源流关系。日本民族学家竹村卓二说：“正如过山瑶的名字一样，他们具有渡过高山的习性”h。同样，山越也具有这种越过大岭的特征。史载：“山越深险，皆不宾附”，“山谷万重。山越顽抗，不出其间”，“依阻山险，不纳王租，故曰山越”i。又“不事赋役迁徙糜定，过山耕种，谓之过山瑶”j。《评王劵牒》也载“王瑶子孙，不属国家，不属百姓，免粮无税，见官不下跪，过渡不付钱，天下青山任其耕种”。

[here is my favorite: she compares the Shan Yue and the Guo Shan Yao ways of lives.She wrote, "...the Shan Yue lived in dangerous mountains, pay not taxes, moving often...the decendents of Wang Yao belonged to no nation, belonged to no people, pay no taxes, no needed to kneel down when see high ranking officers, to cross the river without paying fees, and free to cultivate any green mountains...]

历史对这不同逼诹街植煌坪舻娜私辛思嗨频募鞘觥？杉窖欢燃坛辛松皆讲皇茉际非笞杂傻奶匦裕际遣荒赏踝猓皇赂骋鄣墓皆搅胫恕６叩墓叵凳窍茸嬗牒笠岬耐逶垂叵怠?span lang="EN-US">

二、江浙会稽山→闽南、广东南海→韶州府，是过山瑶举族迁徙之路。韶州府是唐朝初年形成完满的还愿时期的圣地。还愿师公在“园箕愿”、“园猪愿”及“歌堂宝书愿”等几层仪式中，通过打令道根源和歌唱盘王大歌书等内容，使我们明白了先辈的迁徙原因和迁徙路线：十二姓瑶民在会稽山地带经历了“雷落地”、“天柱倒”、“洪水发”、“天大旱”、捕鱼失火遭缉拿追赶和被迫下海的苦难。他们漂流在东南海面上，历尽风浪之险，终于在盘王圣灵的庇护下得救还生，在南海登陆又徙往粤北分散各地的历程。茶坪、莽山的师公们在“还愿香坛”里，按照他们的经文“宝书”记载，念唱了郴州瑶族的几条来路。
⑴会稽山南京七宝洞→广东南海岸→潮州→雷化高州→韶州府乐昌县→唐太宗贞观二年（628年）来郴“镇守郴州城池”→分散到宁远、道州、资兴、汝城、宜章、桂东、江西茶陵。
⑵会稽山南京七宝洞→江西吉安府→蓝山、江西→广东连州桃源洞→宋朝来到湖南汝城九龙江→桂东→酃县龙渣洞→资兴、郴县、临武、宜章、桂阳。
⑶松江（浙江绍兴）→扬子江润州坝尾→潮州→惠州→连州→桃源洞→仁化青竹江→明泰昌（1620年）徙湖南郴州→道州、酃县。
⑷会稽山七宝洞→广东南海岸→乐昌→湖南永州宝寨山→郴州→桂阳→莽山。
⑸南京十保山→福建→广东乳源、阳山→郴州莽山、桂阳。
（6）会稽山七贤洞→广东乐昌→广西平乐→湖南常宁→郴县桥口椿树垅。
师公们记述的这几条来路与过山瑶族谱、《评王劵牒》、《郴州先皇安瑶碑记》中的记载完全一致。又根据江华、蓝山保存的《十二姓下山来路祖途》记载，他们的迁徙之路是：
⑺南京十保山→紫京山→南海浮桥头→小南渡→林子村→广西桂林→平乐→广东连州扬古山→下湖南海岸→广西→江华、蓝山。
再根据竹村卓二、白鸟芳郎、姚舜安三位先生的著作提到，移向外国的路线有：
⑻泰国北部“优勉”南京→广东→广西→云南→老挝、泰国（竹林）k
⑼华南的南京→两广→越南、老挝→泰国（白鸟芳郎）l。
⑽云南富宁邓、李、赵三姓：湖南千家洞→广东乐昌→广西田林→云南富宁→越南、老挝（姚舜安）m。
上例十条迁徙路线，除姚先生收集的那条路线外，其它的迁徙之路都是以“会稽山南京七宝洞”作为原始住地和始发站徙往他乡的。这与容先生根据众多的《评王劵牒》所列举的五类迁徙流向大体一致，与广东、广西、湖南三省区的地方志中对瑶族活动的有关记载也可互为印证。姚舜安先生说“《评王劵牒》是他们（盘瑶）迁徙路线的‘证明书’”n。此言甚是，可是姚舜安先生在《瑶族迁徙之路的调查》一文中给我们勾画的盘瑶北路、南路两条迁徙路线的起点都是“湖南千家洞”并说“今日世界上的盘瑶大都是从这里迁去。”o这就与盘瑶（过山瑶)的历史实际不尽相符了。就连《千家洞古本记》也载：“我们的祖先在南京，江西省太和县人氏。”《世代流传祖居来历书》也写着“十二姓板瑶出世南京道、十保店千家洞。” 千家洞排在后，从有关千家洞文献记载中的盘、奉、邓、瞿、赵、蒋、黄、李等姓氏看，住在洞里的不过是元明清之际，平地瑶、汉族、过山瑶杂居的一个地方罢了，当然江华、江永和广西的部分过山瑶中有千家洞的传说，那也不过是过山瑶悠久历史的中古史和近代史罢了，何况“南岭无山不有瑶”呀。即令是江华《邓姓始祖来历》中提到千家洞居住着瑶人，也是到了元朝大德年间，而早在隋末或唐初，十二姓过山瑶的绝大部分经飘洋过海后，又重聚粤北韶州府，在那里建连州庙，还盘王愿了（上列迁徙之路的第一路可证，连州庙颂唐王亦可证）。而在湖南省道县，江永之间的都厐岭山区抑或是江永县的大远乡，任何时候都不曾称呼“南海”“南京”或“会稽山”。因此，作为迁徙主干的过山瑶（盘瑶）不会是从“湖南千家洞”迁去的。说“今日世界上的盘瑶大都是从这里迁去”的结论，更是证据不足。竹村先生深入研究过的越南、老挝、泰国的过山瑶集团，没有千家洞的传说。过山瑶学者黄方平考察美国瑶人时，发现那里的瑶人也“自认是从南京十保殿繁衍而来的王瑶子孙”P，黄钰先生在《千家洞初考》中写道“目前也未出现瑶族源于湖南江永之说,”说它“是瑶族原始居地，目前还没有发现史料改变瑶族迁徙流向的理由。”
[Here it says that the Guo Shan Yao may not come from the famous Qian Ja Dong--but Nan Jing Shi Bao Dian]

说瑶族都是由长沙武陵蛮发展而来，也不尽合符过山瑶的历史。理由是：1.语言不同。过山瑶“勉”语与武陵山区的民族语言没有共同之处，甚至与比邻而居的平地瑶和花瑶也不能通话。2.信仰不同。武陵山区的民族不信奉盘瓠，辰溪、怀化的瑶族信奉高坡大王，江华、江永的平地瑶信奉闰王。3.姓氏不同。过山瑶传统的十二姓是盘、沈、包、黄、李、邓、周、赵、胡、唐、雷、冯。今天辰溪、溆浦、怀化的陈、石、卜、丁、沈、刘等姓瑶族及花瑶、平地瑶的奉、杨姓不同于过山瑶的十二姓。4.地域不同。过山瑶一如既往地说盘瓠始祖住“南京会稽山七宝洞”。而在武陵山区的任何地方，任何时候，都未曾称呼过这一地名。5.习俗习惯不同。据此多方面看，过山瑶非源于“长沙武陵蛮”，同“莫瑶”的关系可能也不大。与今天湖南省的花瑶、平地瑶也不同源。
那么，湖南历史上的“长沙武陵蛮”、“零陵蛮”、“莫瑶”、“蛮瑶”又何指呢？不少学者对此已有苌钊氲难芯俊９鼙壬凇逗涎宓淖逶础⑶ㄡ愫椭魈宓谋浠芬晃闹行吹?span lang="EN-US">:“过山瑶是山越的后裔”，莫瑶“主要生活在零陵郡、长沙郡，应是汉代‘零陵蛮’‘长沙蛮的后裔’，今天平地瑶的先人。当然，莫瑶并非只是平地瑶的先人，他们可能也是部分瑶族支系和苗族支系的先人。尤中亦认为“莫瑶”实为苗，急读为“苗”。王慧琴也言，“有人还认为苗族的一部分，出于‘夜郎’或出于‘莫瑶’”。马少侨同样认为“苗族自称为‘蒙’为‘模’与‘苗’‘莫’声母相同，可能‘苗’就是莫瑶的反切。”q以上这些观点也比较合符湖南瑶族社会历史实际，引录于此，聊备一说。
在过山瑶的迁徙过程中，特别值得提出的是广东韶州府，此地对过山瑶的历史和文化影响甚大。从前面所列各路的迁徙看，都经过了韶州。茶坪和莽山在还愿中，也反复提到这个地方。如在还大排良愿的“青云堂”，有连州后生唱，《连州歌》卖“丰飞”树的表演，在“宝书良愿”的歌坛里，又大唱了《连州桃源洞歌》。这说明韶州府地带是过山瑶长途迁徙中一个重要的聚落点和里程碑。
遥想当年，先祖在南海岸登陆，各姓简单地还愿谢祖后，北迁到了粤北山地，这里的高山密林成了他们抵御异己力量的屏障和避难的所在，在那里，他们又得以重新聚居，在乐昌或连州建起连州大庙，将自己固有的原始宗教（如还愿中的招五鼓魂）和在江浙地带吸收的茅山教揉合在一起，又加上漂船过海的经历和集各姓登陆后简单还愿仪式之大成，在连州大庙里，进行整个部族性的“奏档”还愿。集体创作和规定了统一的经典宝书，统一的还愿仪式，统一的祭献牺牲，并有了代代还愿的祭祀规约。从仪式到内容，从语言到文字（借用汉文记音记意），形成了过山瑶的一整套科仪制度。可以肯定，过山瑶在那里聚居了一段不短的时间。又时逢唐初贞观盛世，唐太宗鼓励开发岭南，免徭役赋税，颁劵牒，批官山给瑶人，使瑶人获得赖以生存的山岭土地及其它一些特权，此次走上新的生活之路。他们带着先祖许下的神圣“愿约”，也带着他们在这里共同创作的“良愿宝书”随山耕种，漂泊天下，而形成了还愿活动，还愿经书，它们记载了在今天通“勉”语的瑶族社会“天下大同”的情景。因此，在过山瑶的心目中，韶州府简直就是一块圣地，一片乐土。故还愿时总有不少有关连州的内容。正是这种仪式与内容，使过山瑶对韶州府那么难以忘怀。竹村对老挝过山瑶集团的漂海传说分析说：

[Here is the sentence that says US Iu-Mien is Guo Shan Yao]

它记载了广东省韶州府落(乐) 昌县这个实有地名。……证明老挝、泰国的瑶族在很久以前，确实曾以此地为故乡。即令那些远渡重洋，徙往欧美大陆的过山瑶游子，也在亡故之前，谆谆告示后代，要将亡灵归送中国的韶州府，这种深切的缅怀，无限的眷恋，正是通过这不朽不灭的神圣的还盘王愿得以产生和建立的。这也是竹村先生所指出的:“超时间和空间的文化要素的一致性是属于所谓过山瑶范畴集团的一个特点。”r那么今天瑶族社会的还盘王愿，便是这文化要素的一次体现。
注释：a《搜神记》 b《魏书》 cdi转引自《南方民族史论文集》 e施光明《山越、山明非宗部解》 f（ ）中地名系谱中原注 j《郴州乡土志》 hkr《瑶族的历史和文化》 l《东南亚山地民族志》 mno《瑶族迁徙之路的调查》 p《美国西海岸瑶民社会考察》 q《苗族研究论文集》

To unswer you questions:

1. Yes, it is indeed contradict what i just wrote about 3miao article--i'm confused too;
2. Wu 吳 is Su Zhou language, i think, while Yue 粵 is Cantonese and Min 閩 is Fujian language--and all are different dialects of the Han language.

If you read Chinese, you will find this article really interesting. For me, i only be able to understand part of it yet i enjoy it alot. Or if you don't read Chinese, perhaps some one you know can help you out.

--Camv-Norm Mh Zing Tengx Jienv Doic Mangc Buatc Duqv Gauh Jangv Gauh Cing--

i once read and loved this article entitled 过山瑶的族源和迁徙 [Guo Shan Yao's Origin and Migrations] by 赵砚球. It's kind confusing when we look at the story of the Yao nationalities altogether at once. Fortunately, for this one, she only talks about the Guo Shan Yao--a Yao ethnicity branch which the US Mien belong to.

Here is a very short example of how she studied the origin of the Guo Shan Yao :

1. 从还盘王愿活动看 look at the sipv mienv sou especially the Jaauv Bienh Hungh Nyunc Sou 瑶人经书.

one example of what she found:
*过山瑶源于山越，其原始居住地在江浙一带的会稽山
*Guo Shan Yao originated from Shan Yue[name of a tribe] at Hui Ji Shan [Name of a place] in Jiang-Ze[names of region]region. [it is a place near Nan Jing]
She studied Mien's religious practice called 还盘王愿 or Jaauv Bienh Hungh Nyunc in Mien. Every time a shaman sipv mienv he would mention names of these places and regions.

2. 从瑶族文物和民间文献资料看 look at Mien writing such as folk song 盘王大歌, jiex-sen borngv 過山榜[the Passport to cross The Mountain], zouv douh[records of ancestor's tomb]etc...
these writings also reveal or say where the Mien originated and how they migrated and what is important things[such as Buo MIuc or the Three Temples]places[such as Nan Jing, Hui Ji Shan].

3. 从语言对比分析看look at the languages of people in the region where the writing said the Mien originated
She compared the language of Fu Jian, Shang Hai and Guangdong with the language of Iu-Mien and language in Iu-Mien religious ceremony. In Jaauv Nyunc, there were four dialects of the regional Han languages in it--which are Wu,Min and Yue dialects. And she found similarities between these languages and the Guo Shan Yao language.

4. 从民族习性与经济生活看 look at Mien's habits or characteristics, economy and livelihood.
* give you example later

sorry to further confuse you with my ESL English and my grade school Chinese.

--Camv-Norm Mh Zing Tengx Jienv Doic Mangc Buatc Duqv Gauh Jangv Gauh Cing--

i know of this company and kellogs foundation and they have very intersting points of views about your original story check them out might be of interst to u

http://www.wildflowers.org/community/IuMien/portrait.shtml

[quote from the introduction of this website's name again]

3miao might mean [Three Brothers] because one of the sentence wrote, "历经磨难的三兄弟之后裔终于在新中国在“苗族”的名号下开始他们重新的凝聚重合之路" let me try to translate for us, " ...had been gone through hardship and suffering and finally the decendents of the THREE BROTHERS have come together under the name of "MIAO ZU" or Miao Nationalities...

“尧、舜、禹” "Yao, shun, and Yu" were the three emperors who led their nation to fight 3miao nation and they were the ancestors of the Han.

遁入南岭山区的人中，向东的部分散布到今天的江西南部、广东北部、福建西北、浙江西部，并与越人发生混杂，形成今天的畲族。"she" are the decendents of 3miao people and the Yue 越 people after inter-mixed.

--Camv-Norm Mh Zing Tengx Jienv Doic Mangc Buatc Duqv Gauh Jangv Gauh Cing--

recently, i have read a very interesting article posted at 3miao.net--a Miao[Hmong]website in China. According to the introduction of the name of their website, here how the Yao were originated.

About 5000 years ago, there was a nation called 3miao Guo 三苗國[san miao guo]. It is believed to be a tribal alliance nation. It is not clear what the "3" stand for--3 Brothers or 3 Major Tribes ?

a major war broke out between the 3miao nation and the other nameless tribal alliance nation of the north led by Yao,Shun and Yu emperors. Their decendents are known as the Han today. After several hundred years of fighting, the 3miao nation collapsed. Its people fled West and South. Those fled south then moved southeast to the present day Guangdong, Fujian, jiangxi and inter-mixed with the "Yue 越" tribe and they become the nowaday "She 畬" nationalities. Some of those moved south and southwest to the areas such southern China, Vietnam, Lao and Thailand and they were the Yao 瑤 nationalities as we know today. Those moved west were in greater number and they were the Miao 苗 nationalities.

By reading the story of Pan Hu[King Pan] and Guo Shan Bang, eventhough it is only a legend, yet it seems happend after the above story ?

Well folks, due to my poor Engish and Chinese language skills, i tried to make it as short as possible.

i don't think what i wrote will help you at all, but it may help you where to look for more info about Mien history.

--Camv-Norm Mh Zing Tengx Jienv Doic Mangc Buatc Duqv Gauh Jangv Gauh Cing--

Thanks a lot guys. I've learned more about our ancestry reading all your postings than doing research on my own. It is so fastenating... I just wonder where you all learned of the things yalls know about our history. All your knowledge is so in depth and it really seems like you've been studying it for a while. My knowledge seems so superficial compared to what all yalls know.

Thanks for taking your time for posting what you know. I share what i read with my parents even though I struggle to explain it to them in mienh. I recently got a mienh dictionary from my sister's church and have been reading it. Learning how to actually read Mienh is sooooooo difficult.

"Music is food for your soul you eat with your ears."

thank you for posting

it clearly tells us your ancestors's migrating pathes. They first moved form Guangdong province to Yunnan province. 孟拉 [Meng La]is only about 50 miles from the Lao border. Then they moved to 孟賴 which is Vietnam--it is also called Lai Chau. 孟誇 [Muang Kua] and 孟恩 [Muang Ngen]both in Laos. Then, looks like it, they moved back to Yunnan again. if 孟電 was [Muang Taeng] or Dian Bian Phu, than they moved back to Vietnam for the second time...real interesting.

thanks again.

For your question about [nyunc], sorry, i don't know anything about sipv mienv at all.

--Camv-Norm Mh Zing Tengx Jienv Doic Mangc Buatc Duqv Gauh Jangv Gauh Cing--

That is exactly what I thought too. I thought that 'mungv' was a Lao term. I'm sure its pronounced 'mungv' because this character was used, 孟， actually, the character used was just like that one except it had another 子 on top. The places were from oldest, 韶州府乐昌县；孟拉南厄言堂；孟懶洞管入平河；孟誇洞；孟恩；雲南道宣昜州孟拿洞；孟電府 the one from the story and some other ones i cant find on the computer to write either i dont noe the pronunciation or the writing is completely different.

The sipv mien sou are truly important just as you said. Not only are they for sipv mienv but to find ones history. But then again, the older Mien don't care as much for their long ago history and that could be a reason for keeping the books. The other reason is that when we 'Orn Zouv' thats when they need those books and when people convert they don't need them anymore. It would be good for them to keep it for professors to learn where we are from and historians.

Maauh Sen and Hui Ji Shan are the only two that I have never heard of. I was looking through the 'Koi Daanh Sou' found another place. It is Ngorh Meih Sen, Orn Baengh Nquenc.

-------------------
Daix ngongh daix zaangz bun ong nyanc,
Ong nyanc orv, gux hlaaix mbungv..

Thank you for this information. I also think it is also the same Lian Zhou
from the Three Temples. Do you have any knowledge of what are in the Laangh Nyunc Sou and Jaauv Nyunc Ging-Sou? In the back of our Zouv-Douh. They have something about the Laangh Nyunc and other Nyunc but I don't understand for they are for. They are 'Youc taux houv Zeuz horh siangx laangh nyunc' [又到許趙和尚良愿]；[又到帮愿]；[又祭兵愿] and some other ones.

----------------
Daix ngongh daix zaangz bun ong nyanc,
Ong nyanc orv, gux hlaaix mbungv..

Hello Little Brother, Zoih Orn

Your family's zouv-douh really has a long history.

Before making comment regarding this word[mungv], i would like my reader to correct me if i were wrong. The term "mungv" must be Dai[Janx-Baeqc Ei]language. If you see this "Mungv" term appear in your family's Zouv-Douh that means your ancestor[s] was burried in Lao or Dai or one-time Lao/Dai territory. One-time in the past, the Lao or Dai people has had a territory as far as to Da Li, Yunnan province and as far as the now a day China and Vietnam border which they call "Naa Noiv Oiv Nux" in Lao language. Every time Lao people are practicing "su kuanx" or " heuc wuonh" as in Mien language, the "morx pohn", "heuc wuonh nyei mienh" will mention the former territory of their people...what was the most north, east, south and west points. It is exactly what the Mien shamen do when they sipv mienv too, to mention where Mien people used to live; and what are the most important places such as--Naamh Ging Ziepc Buv Dinc, Maauh Sen, Saaux-Ziou Fouv, Lorqc Ciang Nquenc and Yaangh Ziouh.

i think sipv mienv sou is really important for any body who wants to look at the Mien history not just to learn how to practice Mien religion. For example, if you destroyed your family's zouv-douh, you ancestors' migrating path would be lost forever. So, please keep them[Mien writing]as Mien history resources.

--Camv-Norm Mh Zing Tengx Jienv Doic Mangc Buatc Duqv Gauh Jangv Gauh Cing--

I'm replying to #1. In my grandpa's 'Koi Daanh Sou', i've seen the words for Hui Ji Shan and Mao Shan but I don't know how it is pronounced. Nan Jing= Naamh Ging; Yang Zhou= Yangh Ziou. There is also Meih Sen Ziepc Dongc, and another one. In our 'Zouv-Douh' the farthest it goes back is Saaiv^Ziou^Fouv, Lorqc^Ciang^Nquenc, then a bunch of other 'mungv' and 'dongc'.

----------------------
Daix ngongh daix zaangz bun ong nyanc,
Ong nyanc orv, gux hlaaix mbungv..

The group who speaks Kim-Mun and Kim-Ti are called Lanten Yao and their language is similar to ours. A story goes that they were from the same group as the Guo Shan Yao but broke off and were left behind. My grandma calls them 'Janx-Canh Zeiv' or something like that. They live mainly in Laos.

----------------
Daix ngongh daix zaangz bun ong nyanc,
Ong nyanc orv, gux hlaaix mbungv..

May I ask where you found these papers?

This is really interesting. SO, it "is" (or is it?) true that the Yao branched off from the Shan-Yue; which would probably contradict the theory that we descended from the 3Miao (again, after the 3Miao migrated and broke apart from the eachother). The Yue or the Hundred Yue Kingdom are described to be the ancestors of what is now known as Vietnam/or the Vietnamese; the Dai/Tai(ancestors of the Thai/Lao might fall under too, not quite too sure about that though-could be wrong).

Hhmmm, I've heard of the Wu dialect, is it a "Han" language?

As for the Yue dialects, and if the Mien dialect of the Yao-languages, would have any similarity or if they are intelligible with the Yue languages, would that then mean that our language is Tai-Kadai or Austronesian?

I have heard of the Guo Shan Yao. From what I've been told, the Guo Shan Yao means (Crossing Mountains Yao), which has a story behind it. I know that a branch of the Yao people settled in Fujian for quite sometime, but the the sub-branch that I read about were not considered as apart of the "Mienh" group; I believe they spoke Kim-Mun, so they are not the Guo Shan Yao, but some other branch. Quite interesting though...never would've guessed that the Mienh were in Nanjing either.

Great information....

If you're seriously considering in reconnecting with your roots, and you're currently looking for pieces to refer to, I have some things that might be able to help you. Hit me up and I can e-mail them to you.

I sure have, and I have that uploaded on youtube as well. Be sure to view my vids on there and support them.

hey thanks pinky for the link that was awesome! interesting documentry!

have you seen voices from the mountain? its really touched home with me!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtb8qM4K4FY

seems about right. coolios.

Nice, thank you for clarifying. I'll be sure to find make use of this somewhere. Laengz-zingh.

It's a decent documentary and I do recommend any Mienh to watch it; glad you enjoyed it btw. Haha, my favorite part was the breaking part too. My bf and I saw that and we were like.."uh oh, look out." Any how, for those of you who have not viewed it yet, be sure to check it out.

Lates.

I watched the whole video, it was really interesting and some of it was pretty funny. There was a scene where this Mien boy in a blue track suit was break dancing towards the end, haha. It was like a chapter of my childhood, taken from my childhood and put on film. There was some cultural value in the film that i had not quite understood while growing up but after seeing the film, it only seemed too obvious. For instance... When after "sip mienh" the grown ups would eat dinner but the women was sit on the another table. I had always thought that it was more of a curtious gesture than a sub-serviant cultural aspect of behaving.

I RECOMMEND you all to check it out, its pretty good. Its kinda funny because everytime they start speaking in Mienh, they get cut off and is replaced with English. I would rather it just be mienh but than no one else would understand it. haha

Thanks a lot for the link Pinky

"Music is food for your soul you eat with your ears."

You can get a copy at this PBS Site: http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/deathofashaman/

Be sure to tune into Moving Mountains as well. If you're interesting in watching it (its a streaming video) click here: http://www.folkstreams.net/film,149

Hope that helped